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Non-Fiction: What is the mind? 10-03-2006 - by Easyd
(1137 words) |
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I find the idea of being any old lump of matter as somewhat anonymous and pejorative.
I find the idea of being any old lump of matter as somewhat anonymous and pejorative. Anyway the idea of a simple lump of matter ain't what it used to be. First, 'matter' is not the hard and fast stuff it used to be - break it up and you find ghostly probability patterns - the stuff of which dreams are made. Secondly saying that consciousness is the 'totality of feelings corresponding to being a lump of matter' reminds me of Colin McGinn's book on mind and matter - he ridicules rather skillfully the idea that we are nothing but a computer made of meat. Particularly brilliant I found his description of space and mind - every phrase and idea relates to space, but thought is not of space - consciousness is not located in any one place and does not have spatial extent.
McGinn's was also the brilliant idea that before the big bang there was no matter and maybe just mind and that the universe oscillated between mind and matter states and our consciousness now is sort of pockets of the primordial consciousness entering the special conditions offered by brains.
In a way, though, the 'computer made of meat' idea is true in so far as the subjective aspect of consciousness has objective correlates that are the fluxes within the lump of matter, those fluxes being partly electrochemical in the classical sense and partly quantum with its superpositions, non-locality and interconnectedness. But although we know that the subjective aspect is associated with the objective correlates, it is perhaps too much to say that the former arises from the latter, e.g. as an 'emergent' property.
Science at the moment is silent on the connection between the two: that's why behaviourism tried to ignore and deny the subjective side of the coin. And that's how it is: two sides of the coin, the subjective and the objective, or as Malik puts it nicely, the subjective aspect or feeling is the 'inside' of the system: e.g. in meaning - there's an outer or objective aspect, but to get the full shilling you have to be in the driving seat, i.e. inside the feeling. That horrified the behaviourists: the little woman or man in the centre of the brain - that leads to infinite regression or the 'soul'.
Also to say you 'are' a lump of matter restricts to locality: but take that lump of matter to be, for example, two electrons linked in an orbital round an atom that in an experiment are separated and shot apart, one going to Alpha Centauri and one to here. Aspect showed that until you burst the bubble of the wave function by measuring here or in Alpha Centauri this pair of particles has no fixed locality - it is spatially extended and interlinked in Einstein's feared 'ghostly action at a distance'.
In the same way a brain seems to be interlinked in a non-local way - certainly our inside experience of it 'binds'
inputs from disparate areas into one unified whole: so your internal TV screen incorporates info from all over the brain – there is no central place where it all comes together.
If a "materialist" is a person who wants his explanations to be in terms of things that exist, then if a 'soul' or 'interconnectedness of all things' existed, then his explanations would have to encompass them. We know from Aspect that the latter exists, so already the old style materialist with his surly countenance and gloomy insistence on brute matter is passe.
Thus Occam's razor now is a two edged blade, as far as the lugubrious hero of the last sentence is concerned, for it urges us to explain as much as we can in terms of the molecules, atoms, particles, superstrings and ghostly action at a distance (Einstein’s description). And even that is mostly airy fairy, as atoms and even molecules have now been superposed in double slit experiments: matter is all ghostly wavefunctions interacting.
Even the entanglement that leads to the illusion of hard matter that fooled our old style buffoon may be seen as evidence for proto-consciousness reaching as far as the atomic level: One entity (electron, atom or molecule) wandering on it's own is lost in the dream (of Gerontius) that blurs it into a ghost to all others, until it bumps into another ghost, at which point both come briefly to their senses as something measured and definite. Each atom then becomes Von Neuman's or Wigner's (proto-)conscious collapser or collapsed. This is what gives the illusion of solid matter.
However, the fact that matter even at room temperture is full of ghostly ineffable quantum effects (mmmm... lovely, as the Brauerei Fest band play 'let it be' as I write) was shown recently in new confirmation of that anomaly of ordinary water - it is H(3/2)O and not H2O since probing lasers always show a bit of the second H missing! The latter is evidence that good old H2O is not quite there. And this quantumly suspect liquid is the basis of all life, so via Occam life is riddled with quantum!
Thus your, as a materialist's, demand that extra (w.r.t. old fashioned matter-as-a-hard-brick) fundamental ingredients be as existent (and therefore as susceptible to investigation) as our beloved atoms is met: the investigators are investigating them!
Anecdotal evidence: Reproducibility is all well and good for electric currents, pendulums,
and the more regular action-at-a-distance quantum effects, but it is not vouched safe for many things we know to be real but which dissolve in the white heat of the lab: Conscious states, for one - each is unique: in fact some of the more 'materialist' neuroscientists make much of the fact that the same wine will never taste the same twice as the brain/mind will be in different state each time depending on a complex mix of emotions, alcoholic stupor, circadean or menstrual rhythm etc.
Thus a wine tasting is not reproducible in the narrow sense: just as a meteor causing a giant crater in Arizona is not exactly reproducible: telepathy and other psi effects are more reliable as they are occasionally reproducible - just not always, no more than wine tasting or Arizonan craters.
Come on, who are we fooling here? Physicists don't want to accept psi on philosophical grounds and thus will always shift the goalposts to suit their desired result. However, that notwithstanding, even religion and mysticism are achieving a synthesis with science - doctors showed in some studies that patients prayed for (without their knowledge) did better than control patients not prayed for. Just read a review of William James' "Varieties of religious experiences" in which the founding father of American psychology urges a union of religious-mystic ideas and psychology
Critique/comments welcome
Average Score: 10 / Votes: 1

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Comment posted by Dongar
(10-03-2006 03:00)
Send Dongar a Private
Message | Great read, Easyd! I like the reasoning here, being also into the mind-matter debate. Just when it's getting a bit technical you throw in a non-sequitur. Like it.
Dongar | |
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Reply from Easyd Thanks Dongar - good to hear of like minds: or is it like-matters? :-)
Take care,
Easyd |
Comment posted by Dongar
(10-03-2006 03:13)
Send Dongar a Private
Message | Welcome. Easyd. I am interested in the possibility of quantum effects in the brain. There was some research a while back (in Southampton, I think) where an EEG was used to ' observe' areas of the brains of volunteers as they performed tasks. The researchers claimed to find a lower performance when the observation was 'switched on' and concluded that the wave function had collapsed prematurely in that area of the brain, terminating the computations taking place there. That sounded to me like the best evidence for a quantum effect I heard of yet. What do you think?
D | |
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Comment posted by Gerry
(10-03-2006 03:36)
Send Gerry a Private
Message | Hugh , good thinking material here. You leave the door wide open like any sensible minds would. Elgar was pretty near to the answer when he wrote the Dream...;-)
Regards
Gerry | |
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Reply from Easyd Hi Gerry!
Thanks for the comment. Not sure why I choose Gerontius - a bit whimsical: wasn't thinking too much of the music or Newman's poem at the time. As long as it had the ability to set you thinking, it can;t be bad though: wow, I can inspire a genius to think!
Lol,
Hugh |
Comment posted by Easyd
(10-03-2006 03:41)
Send Easyd a Private
Message | Sounds like an interesting experiment. I was thinking more of the work (was it by Ecccles and Beck? - see also Atmanspacher here - http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-consciousness/ ) where superposition of ions at synapses occurs. Stapp is maybe even more extreme in wanting the wave function of the whole brain to be in a superpositon of states, where a choice causes the brain state to collapse into one or other of the possibilities. | |
Author: [ delete ] this comment |
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Comment posted by Simon
(10-03-2006 10:14)
Send Simon a Private
Message | There can't be any connection between consciousness and stuff observed in the lab, any more than there can be any connection between a statement that you "ought to" do something and a statement of fact. They're different. Like justice is different from cheese.
Perhaps the universe is not only simpler than we think but also simpler than we CAN think.
Simon Simpleton Leigh | |
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Reply from Easyd The universe is a strange mix of the simple and the complex - the Yin and the Yang. E.G. General Relativity is at once supremely simple and hellishly complex. And although I would dearly love soul and consciousness to float free and independent of all labs and clinical experiments, the reality is again not so simple. There are objective counterparts of certain subjective traits of consciousness. E.g. in a sleep lab, the EEG will show different oscillations when in REM sleep or even betwen open and closed eyes...
But again the pure subjectivity may never be caught in the lab - that could be what you mean.
Easy(yet complex)D |
Comment posted by MiddleEarthNet
(11-03-2006 08:48)
Send MiddleEarthNet a Private
Message | Wow, a fascinating piece. I had to read it twice to come close to understanding it. I think it is a really interesting subject area, though I know very little about it. | |
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Reply from Easyd Glad you found it fascinating, MiddleEarthNet - it is indeed a very interesting area. I've really enjoyed reading up on it. Lol.,
Easyd |
Comment posted by Simon
(12-03-2006 02:07)
Send Simon a Private
Message | Dear easyd,
Of course you're right, but I'm still looking for the simplest way through
an insoluble problem, which is the old mind/body split, where it's clear
that consciousness, and observable scientific data, can never interact
because they're logically independent. (Like UFOs cannot be identified
because logically they'd no longer be UFOs.) My noticing something (e.g. a
smell) can never affect the instruments in your lab, and likewise your
reading of some lab instrument can never directly affect my experience of
that smell. The difference is between "my" and "your." Even if our brains
were wired together, I could not experience your experience, only my own.
The correlation between e.g. your observation of whether my eyes are open or
closed, and your observation of corresponding changes in the EEG data, is no
problem. But observing it is still YOUR experience, not mine. There can be
no connection, not even a correlation--except between your observations of
your instruments and your observations of my statements of my experience, as
my eyes open and close.
Likewise, in a sleep lab, my experience of being attacked by a dog,
followed by my experience of waking up and realising that it was only a
dream, can be mapped on an EEG readout, but the measurement cannot possibly
be causing the experience, nor the experience causing the EEG data to occur.
It's my brain-wave patterns that affect the EEG readings.
My falling into a microsleep while driving tired could be observed by a
video camera--eyelids drooping, then snapping open a few seconds later--but
my experience of losing, then regaining consciousness is completely private,
unique, and mine alone. (Or yours, of course. I mean the person experiencing
the consciousness.)
OK, so where, using Occam's razor, can I find the simplest solution to this
problem? Easy. I have to assume that EVERYTHING happens in my consciousness.
There's nothing else "out there." Anything existing apart from my
consciousness of it is too wild an assumption to make, and not needed
anyway. Einstein's equations still work, but they have no existence
"outside" my (dim) consciousness of them. They can't have; and if they did,
they could never have any effect on my consciousness (though my studying
"them" would) , any more than e.g. a suspicion can affect a tsunami.
OK, so solipsism is a hard, lonely notion to swallow, but it does have the
merit of being the simplest way around the otherwise impossible coincidence
of scientific data and (my--or your) experiences of drifting into and out of
consciousness, and the constant changes in your consciousness, e.g. as you
read this.
So your last sentence, "But again the pure subjectivity may never be caught
in the lab - that could be what you mean" is false. It CAN NEVER be caught
in the lab (except by the experimenter). But you're right: that could be
what I mean. Thank you again for helping me work towards what it is I mean.
Best wishes,
Simon Leigh
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Comment posted by Easyd
(12-03-2006 05:57)
Send Easyd a Private
Message | Nice long comment there, Simon.
In fact I agree with almost all that you are saying there. I also believe in the complete isolation of every individual consciousness. Yes, it could lead to solipsism (I’m glad I made you think that to let me answer it ). It could also lead to idealism, which is another possible conclusion of the reasoning you outline. As philosophers like Colin McGinn have pointed out, idealism is every bit as valid as materialism. Dualism is a handy compromise that let’s you have your cake and eat it.
The only problem is, being sort of a pessimist (or ‘ realist’ ), I note the amazing consistency of what seems to be external matter – that feather just refuses to rise into the air, no matter what. Hell, even my magic weather ability is failing – this is the 2nd year running with snow in March here. So, since I can’t remember having created all the detail, I’m suspicious of solipsism But idealism could still be possible if the sum-total of all minds reached a sort of collective consensus via the collective unconscious - then the archetype of an immovable feather and a bookcase and a parquet floor and computer screen would be lent solidity by mutual consent.
Then sometimes the mask slips and a telepathic dream sneaks through or a Geller can suddenly bend forks and allow others to do so via TV. That would be a believable scenario. Jury’s out. One thing speaks for the consensus theory – the debate on whether light was wave or particle may have split ‘reality’ to give the compromise wave-particle picture we have today. Who knows? But certainly no-one, except an absolute telepathic adept, can ever look inside your head, from the inside out.
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